The difference between a normal person and a man ahead of his time is the one that can draw those conclusions, and act. This board is full of intelligent lads that can come up with great solutions to problems, but not all of us go out there and spark that change.
Agreed. Although he was presented with a huge stepping stone, he still did better than most people would have. I guess I'd say that he was ahead of his peers but not necessarily his time. His most admirable feat, to me, would be the fact that he knew where his path would take him (within the earthly realm) and he still did it. Sacrificing himself for the greater good obviously. And calling him a revolutionary sounds pretty accurate.
As for the story of casting a stone, the whole issue was that adultery was punishable by death old Mosaic law and he went against it. I'm sure most people could have come to the conclusion that 'Shit, this is wrong' but most people probably didn't want to upset the Princep/Governor/Authority of Judea at the time and receives lashes for speaking out.
Going to rush through my point since this stuff can easily turn into 5000 word-essays but it should be pretty clear:
In my interpretation the Torah of the Old Testament still stands. It wasn't about that time in history, it was about a very specific situation that no longer exists today. God chose the Jews and made a covenant with Abraham. He sent Abraham's descendants signs, prophets, unleashed his fury on the Egyptians, split the Red Sea, dropped fucking bread from the heavens, gave them an Ark that dropped walls, exposed himself (trenchcoat-style) to them at Mount Sinai etc. People today are more skeptical but in those days if your people told you these things happened in the past you believed it. I didn't read a single thing about atheism among the Israelites in Exodus and Leviticus. There were plenty of idolaters but they all believed in God and accepted His rule. They were given their own land (which had belonged to others) and prosperity. When you're in great living conditions, knowing the only reason why you're there is because you're riding Abraham's coattail, and you accept the ruling of that society as righteous, I think it's pretty okay for God to kick some major ass when someone breaks the law.
I forgot the details but somewhere in Exodus (I think) one of the Israelites had committed a sin and a plague broke out killing a ton of people in a very short time. The plague didn't stop until someone killed the sinner. Lesson: leave a sinner unpunished and shit gets fucked. One of the major reasons why people were supposed to be killed in such a barbaric way was a) getting rid of the sinners, cutting sin off at the source so it wouldn't spread any further b) scaring people so they wouldn't sin (which in turn would allow God to forgive them)
I imagine a community where everyone believes in God, in His laws, His punishments etc. and no one breaks those laws. Then along comes a homosexual who chooses to act upon these perverse feelings
and doesn't repent then, yes, it's moral (I have my issues with it of course but I see the logic), to drag this person to the middle of town and stone them to death in front of everyone. Gets rid of the unrepenting sinner, who's behavior may have led others to sin, and scares any non-practising homosexuals (*snicker*) away from doing the same thing. They get scared, don't do queer thingies and go to Heaven!
Then there's today. I don't give a fuck what any religious person says, you do not know for a fact that God exists. Not like those people in the Bible. You're not living in a God-fearing society, not everyone agrees or is even aware of God's laws and punishments. And cutting off homosexuality at its source? You couldn't do that in the past but you could keep it at such a minimum that 1 homosexual might make a major difference. Unless the world changes to such a drastic degree, you can no longer quench the homosexual threat. Dragging a homosexual to the middle of town would now 1)
not cut it off at the source 2) doing such a thing in the name of religion would push people further away from God's word 3) open up some major doors for sin to creep in
Not only does it not achieve God's desired effect, it actually does the opposite of what God wants. And you can't drag a sinner off to be stoned when you're a sinner as well. Even Moses sinned, we all fucking sin. That's why God has to forgive us. But put a gay person in front of some moronic Christian and hear them spout "SINNER!".
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
The Torah was laid out to the ancient Israelites and I don't see any.
Also if you look at life as a test and the Bible is the guide to passing this test, then the Bible is a test. God said "kill gays" but it would no longer apply to the future readers of the Bible. Part of our sinful nature is to push our frustrations and hate onto others. A Christian sees the world as ripe with sin, he/she sees a homosexual and projects their anger over the dealings of the world onto that person. Although the Bible created this hatred towards homosexuals it also gives the proper direction to not giving into this hatred, and thereby falling into sin. Arrogant little Christian person
knows they're right,
knows their interpretation is bulletproof and needs no further insight, anger takes over, spouts a few Bible verses and burns a fag... and then ends up in Hell. High-five God!
Unbelievers need to know only 1 thing: a mighty chastisement awaits. But 98% of the Bible is dedicated to believers. All the advice is for them. But if not used appropriately it only pushes people further away from the truth. The Bible seemed pretty clear that God will be harder on those who were exposed to His Truth (believers) but didn't follow His laws (80% of believers?) than he will be on those who weren't exposed (unbelievers).
That to me is working in mysterious ways. And perchance unbelievers doesn't translate to atheist.
Problem for me is that I thought about these things but I haven't re-read it to verify that I didn't just pull some conclusions out of my ass. But for now I see that even if you take the Bible completely literally you don't need to treat the Old Testament as old and outdated. The Torah stands and will stand but that doesn't mean God wants you to stone people to death.
FlipMo said:
Edit: Btw, props Chronic, I can't remember the last time I had a talk like this with someone that can just put himself in a neutral stance and just talk about this kind of stuff without getting emotional or anal about it. You know, exchange of knowledge and opinion. Generally, people at this point would just yell out "Ah fuck off non-believer" or "Fuck off, stupid religious freak" ... So much respect for that.
It's always easier when you're not discussing with an idiot, so same to you lol. When I started the Bible you can imagine my reaction to Genesis. But I figured, what's the point in reading it with that state of mind? Instead of breaking it down, just build it up and see how well it holds up. Divine or not, it's interesting.
